Monday, May 2, 2011
I'll Follow You to Hell and Back: Odyssey's Leadership
Odysseus leaves Troy with nine ships full of men. By the time he is rescued by Calypso, however, all his men have perished. Furthermore, it takes him a full ten years to find his way home. Is Odysseus a good leader who is just cursed by the gods? A good leader with a mutinous crew? Or is he a poor leader who causes his own problems because of misplaced ideals, or reckless behavior or poor leadership skills? Or perhaps somewhere in between or none of the above? Explain your answer using examples from the text to support your point.
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Odysseus demonstrates how to be a leader to the best of his abilities. Yes, he leaves Troy with nine ships and meets Calypso alone and crewless. The recklessness and carelessness of his men, however, is the cause of the death of all of them. When Odysseus’s crew follows his lead without any complaints, they escape safely. After Polyphemus kills the spirit of most of his crew, Odysseus comes up with a plan. With nothing else to hope for, his crew stays quiet while Odysseus is hard at work. He devises a plan of escape that involves revenge on Polyphemus for eating some of his men. The crew, still too depressed to argue with him, goes along with the plan. They escape. When his men are quiet and don’t protest, Odysseus’ leadership proves to be successful.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that Odysseus would not be a good leader because of so many deaths of his men, but that is because his men are reckless and disobey their own leader. In book twelve, Odysseus clearly states to stay away from Helios’s cattle. “Friends, we’ve food and drink aplenty aboard the ship-keep your hands off all these herds or we will pay the price!” (12.345-346) This is an example of leadership from Odysseus. He commands what he expects from his men and warns them of their safety. This shows Odysseus, as a leader, cares for his men. But his men, reckless they are, challenge his leadership and eat the cattle. They do pay the price. This time, they speak against Odysseus and pay the consequence themselves.
Odysseus is not a poor leader. He knows very well what is to come if his men do not obey him. If he did not care for his crew, he wouldn’t warn them. But he does warn them. Odysseus is a good leader who cares for his own crew, but his crew is too recalcitrant. If they kept quiet and obeyed their leader, they wouldn’t have all died. It’s their own fault they died, leaving poor Odysseus alone. His crew’s actions anger the Gods now, and since they are all dead, Odysseus is the only one alive to pay the price.
I agree with Clare. I believe Odysseus is a good leader and is not responsible for many of his crew members’ deaths. Odysseus may have killed a few of his crew, but it was mostly the recklessness of his crew, or fate that killed the crew. For example, when Odysseus was forced to risk all the remaining members’ lives or let the Scylla kill six, he chose the safer route by only losing six men instead of possibly all. This example shows fate, as Odysseus could not get around losing some of his men. However, Odysseus was not responsible for many of the other nine ships of men that he lost. However, Eurylochus was really the poor leader many are mistaking for Odysseus. Like Clare said, Odysseus warned the men not to eat the cattle of the sun, for they are Helios’ cattle and will become angered if the men killed and ate them. However, the crew is stranded on the island for over a month, and when their supplies ran low, the crew decided to eat the cattle. While Odysseus is away, Eurylochus persuaded the crew to eat the cattle, by saying, “So… let’s drive off the pick of Helios’ sleek herds, slaughter them to the gods who rule the skies up there” (12.369-.371). This example shows how Odysseus had no idea that the crew was going to disobey his orders, and was not his fault at all. Another fact that even reinforces this further is that Odysseus was gathering food for the crew when these events happened, which shows a good leadership quality. As a result of killing the cattle, Odysseus’ boats were struck by lightning from Zeus, only leaving Odysseus alive. These deaths had nothing to do with poor leadership from Odysseus, as it was not his fault at all.
ReplyDeleteOdysseus does actions that he is forced to do, so it seems like Odysseus may be harsh. For example, in the Trojan horse, the Greeks may not have defeated Troy, if not for Odysseus’ harsh action. In the Trojan horse, Anticlus wanted to get out of the horse, so tried yelling. So Odysseus “clamped his great hands on the man’s mouth and shut it brutally- yes he saved us all” (4.321-.322). If Odysseus had not been there to shut the man’s mouth, the Trojan’s would have heard and would have come and killed every Greek in the horse. This action of Odysseus may seem extremely harsh, but when looked at it closely, one can see how this example shows one of Odysseus’ great leadership qualities of killing one to save hundreds. His harsh action may seem unnecessary, but really saved the life of everyone in the horse, along with the victory over Troy. This leadership quality of doing whatever it takes to achieve his goal is vital, as it could save hundreds of lives in times when needed.
Okay, so I’m sort of in the middle of this one. I agree that he can be a great leader at times, but a pretty bad one as well. I agree that some deaths of the crewmen were of their own recklessness, but a lot of them were due to the wraths of different Gods, their wraths being brought down because of Odysseus’ careless actions. A prime example of a reckless death is the story of Elpenor “the youngest in our ranks, none too brave in battle, none too sound in mind. He’d strayed from his mates in Circe’s magic halls and keen for the cool night air, sodden with wine he’d bedded down on her roofs. But roused by the shouts and tread of marching men, he leapt up with a start at dawn but so dazed he forgot to climb back down again by the long ladder – headfirst from the roof he plunged, his neck snapped from the backbone, his soul flew down to death.” (10. 608-617). Now this is only one man, out of nine ships full of men that died recklessly that we know of for sure. So what about the others? Well I believe that the majority of the other men’s deaths are due to the rashness of Odysseus.
ReplyDeleteFor example, when Odysseus and his men escape the house of Polythemus, one of Poseidon’s sons, Odysseus’ last words were “Cyclops – if any man on the face of the earth should ask you who blinded you, shamed you so – say Odysseus, raider of cities, he gouged out your eye, Laertes’ son who makes his home in Ithica!” (9. 558-562). This outburst causes Polythemus to pray to Poseidon to “let him come home late and come home a broken man – all shipmates lost, alone in a stranger’s ship – and let him find a world of pain at home!” (9. 592-595). And this pain does come at last. Poseidon takes his revenge on Odysseus and the little crew he has left. Poseidon “rammed the clouds together – both hands clutching his trident – churned the waves into chaos, whipping all the gales from every quarter, shrouding over in thunderheads the earth and sea at once…” (5. 321-324). And this wrath left only Odysseus alive, without the rest of his crew to save him. I believe that many smaller incidences much like this one has occurred in the Odyssey, which was the main killer of all of Odysseus’ men. All in all, I think that even though Odysseus could show great leadership qualities, his quest for fame and his recklessness is what brought all nine ships full of men down to the House of Death.
I have to agree with Henry. I also think that Odysseus is a great leader who was unfortunately struck with bad luck. I believe the way he led his men home was done with perfection and that there was nothing that he could do to avoid their death. Look at the time Odysseus and some of his crew went on the island with Cyclops. Yes they got captured by Polythemus and some of his men were eaten, but his crew insisted that they stop on the island because they were hungry and needed to find food. It is not Odysseus’s fault the Cyclops decided to eat some of his men first rather than himself. It was simply fate that those crew members were eaten.
ReplyDeleteWhen Odysseus had to choose between sailing near Scylla or sailing past Charybdis, he made the perfect choice by sailing near Scylla. He had to choose between the death of six men and the potential death of the entirety of the crew. The perfect choice would be to sail near Scylla, which is what Odysseus decided to do and unfortunately lost six men, which again wasn’t his fault.
I believe most of the deaths of the crew are caused by the crew members themselves. When we look at the example of the time when the crew was debating whether or not to go onto this island to rest and find food. When they approached this island, Odysseus attempted to warn them about the cattle by saying, “Listen to me, my comrades, brothers in hardship, let me tell you the dire prophecies of Tiresias and Aeacean Crice too: time and again they told me to shun this island of the Sun, the joy of man. Here they warned, the worst disaster awaits us. Row straight past these shores-race our black ship on!,” (12.294-12.299). Unfortunately, “Eurylochus urged and the shipmates cheered,” and the crew ended up going onto the island (12.379). They ended up killing the cattle and eating it, and when they left that island, Zeus sent a lightning bolt on their ship and killed all of the crew, but Odysseus survived. I believe he survived because he was a good leader and did not eat the cattle. He tried to warn his crew of their misfortune but they did not listen.
Odysseus is a good leader, despite having a lapse of judgment on occasion, but just happens to have bad luck and not the most loyal crew. When sailing home Odysseus is more helpless than foolish. He cannot counteract a bad crew or bad luck; he just has to make the best of the situation, which in most cases is what he does.
ReplyDeleteOdysseus cannot always control where he lands, and considering he ends up in unfamiliar places most of the time, he cannot possibly be expected to know about where he is. For example, when his fleet lands in Laestrygonian territory, nobody, not even the scouts who let their guard down in front of the natives, was expecting the indigenous people to be violent cannibals. Nothing could be done to defend against an unknown threat but to be cautious, which Odysseus had done in mooring his ship outside the harbor. Similarly, when Odysseus encountered Polyphemus, he did not expect to meet someone who did not have the common courtesy to receive a guest warmly. There was no way to know what awaited him in the cave.
Similar to bad luck, a bad crew is something that Odysseus had no choice but to deal with. Opening the bag of winds, idling in Ismarus, and slaughtering the cattle of the sun are all things that Odysseus warned his crew not to do. Instead the crew disobeyed him and in turn brought disaster. Odysseus has to often pull his crew through by splitting them up to scout so not everyone dies or gets lost, and dragging them off the island of the Lotus-eaters. Without Odysseus such an unorganized group of soldiers would have surely perished much sooner for their actions. It is thanks to Odysseus’s great leadership that they managed to make it so far as the island of Helios.
Hmmmmmmm lets see we have talked about this in class on how awesome Odysseus is. We have debated on if he is a good leader or not. I believe Odysseus is a good leader. Yes he left nine ships full of men but it was for a purpose , I’m not sure why but if you haven’t noticed yet Odysseus does a lot of stuff that you might think is dumb but it’s for a specific purpose. Odysseus is cursed by the gods and they don’t exactly make it easy as Poseidon tries to kill Odysseus but fails but it slows him down and so it takes him longer to get home. Odysseus’s crew is usually loyal to him throughout the epic but after a few years on a ship you think you’d go crazy and disobey Odysseus in book ten when they are almost to Ithaca and they open up the bag of winds and it pushes their ship away from Ithaca so it throws them off track again.
ReplyDeleteSome may think that Odysseus is a bad leader. I don’t agree but I can see the reasons why they may think he is a bad leader because there are many parts in the epic where Odysseus is making his men lead the way if they are in dangerous situations or how he left nine ships full of men and they all died. But he does all of this for a reason because if you haven’t figured out yet Odysseus is a clever man and seems to be two moves ahead as he tricks many people and things like the Cyclopes by saying, “no one stabbed him in the eye.”
BROdysseus leaves Troy with 9 ships full of men. By the time Calypso gets him he has no men left. This leads one to believe that he in fact is a bad leader. However, there are a few options on what you could believe makes him a bad leader. The first thing you could believe is that the Gods are just out to get him. In this case you could blame his entire 10 year journey and everything that happened was the gods fault. FALSE! He could have tried much harder to leave but he chose not to. Another thing you could be lead to believe is that he just had a mutinous crew. FALSE! I don’t believe this is the case at all. Pretty much his entire crew was killed by random cahraazy people. In that case I completely disagree with Clare’s points. She seems to think that it’s the men’s fault that they got killed!! This is crazy. It was completely random and may have a bit to do with my net point.
ReplyDeleteThe last option, which is the most likely choice, is that he’s a poor leader because he is just no good. He has completely reckless behavior and awful leadership skills. Honestly I could lead a group of men better then him! He leads them onto an island covered in Cyclops’ like a mad man! He has no idea how to lead his men and cannot command. This is completely why he is failing at his adventure.
In The Odyssey, Odysseus has many obstacles to overcome if he wishes to return to his home land. I believe the reasons for Odysseus’s obstacles are a combination of being cursed by the Gods and having a mutinous crew. Odysseus thus far in the novel has seemed to be willing to do whatever it takes to get back home. Even though Odysseus is willing to get home for anything, he is slowed down by his crew and the Gods. The main gods that has been slowing down Odysseus are Poseidon and Zeus. Poseidon made many storms to prevent Odysseus from getting home. Zeus also made a huge storm that killed Odysseus’s whole crew and almost killed Odysseus himself. Even though these two Gods have been preventing Odysseus from getting home, it is mainly his crews fault because they were the ones that brought the wrath of the Gods upon them. The reasons for the storms brought upon them from Zeus were entirely the crews fault. The crew went against Odysseus’s orders and killed the cattle of the sun god, which brought a huge storm that destroyed their ship. Also, when the ship was within seeing distance of Ithaca, the crew got jealous of Odysseus and ripped up the bag of winds, which sent them the wrong way from Ithaca. If it wasn’t for these obstacles put upon Odysseus through no fault of his own, he would have reached home a long time before 10 years had gone by.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Odysseus is in fact a terrific leader but is subject to some unfortunate events that led leading to the death of his crew and the marooning of himself. Time after time Odysseus puts his men before himself, he does the jobs that no one else wants to do, he creates the plans for survival, and he believes there should never be a man left behind, defining him as a good leader. His shipmates, rather then him, can be blamed for the devastation of his fleet.
ReplyDeleteOne instance where the crew sets back the voyage indefinitely is when they let out the air from the bag of winds. After receiving a bag of winds from Aeolus, they sailed for days on a strong wind. Ithaca was finally in sight. Unfortunately, the sight of land disappeared as two crewmembers opened the bag of winds due to curiosity. The scene is narrated by Odysseus, “ ‘Hurry, let’s see what loot is in the sack, how much gold and silver. Break it open—now!’ A fatal plan, but it won my shipmates over. They loosed the sack and all the winds burst out and a sudden squall struck and swept us back to sea, wailing, in tears, far from our own native land.” (10.49-54) This shows that it was the fault of the crew members, not Odysseus that forced the ships off of Ithaca’s coast, proving that it was not necessarily Odysseus fault that the voyage became so long and treacherous.
An example that Odysseus truly cares for his men, and will risk his life for them comes in book 10. Odysseus’s men had foolishly fallen into a trap. Eurylochus had been the only survivor and the rest had been transformed into squealing pigs. As Eurylochus came running back into camp, he protested that they leave and escape while they still can. Odysseus takes offense to this request, however, and says, “Eurylochus, stay right here, eating, drinking, safe by the black ship. I must be off. Necessity drives me on.” (10.299-301) Odysseus is saying that he must face the monster who has turned his men into pigs because he would rather face death then knowingly leave one of his men behind. This shows his leadership because he is heroically putting the daftly of his men before his own. Without a captain such as Odysseus, the doomed outcome of his foolish crew would have come much sooner and harsher.
I also believe Odysseus is a great leader who continuously tries to do the right thing and tries to help his crew out but gets punished by the G-Ds or is just unlucky. Throughout his ten year journey home Odysseus is always trying to help his crew and make sure they will get through every obstacle alive but unfortunately he must also save his own life which comes at a coast. One example of how Odysseus tries to help his crew is by trying to tell them not to open the bag of winds and let them out because that would send them backwards and possible kill them however his crew decides to not listen and open the bag. This may show that while Odysseus tries to do whats best sometimes his men can disobey him and not be the smartest group of kids. Overall Odysseus is always trying to help his crew out and make sure they dont die but sometimes he must save him self at the end and leave his crew behind.
ReplyDeleteOdysseus was kindly given 9 ships filled with loyal comrades and returned to Calypso being the only crew member remaining. I believe that the misfortunes of his crew were due to their own recklessness as well as the livid gods that are constantly on his tail. Granted, he did seem to coward out of situations and also choose faulty decisions which made his crew members more vulnerable to death. Therefore, I’m in the middle but leaning on side where it’s the crew’s fault.
ReplyDeletePrimary instances of a reckless crew included the bag of winds, Circe’s cave, and the Island of the Sun. When Odysseus and his crew were almost at their destination, in fact, they could see the coastline, the crew got a little curious as to what was in Odysseus gift bag from Alcinous. Subsequent to that, they released the winds that were in the bag only to blow them extremely off course. This was a major setback in Odysseus’ journey and it was due to the carelessness of his crew. The confrontation of Circe’s cave also exemplified a reckless crew. They indefinitely approached the mysterious cave without caution and this caused them to all be turned to pigs. A similar scenario was at the Island of the Sun when the crew entered the Island and hunted the cattle when demanded not to. Therefore, I feel that the fate the crew faced was to be blamed on them.
I agree with Sarah on this one, I am a little on the middle in this situation. Odysseus uses his cunningness to be a great leader; sometimes he can be a carless towards the lives of his crewmembers. I do not feel like the gods curse him, I feel like Odysseus does not learn from him mistakes. Odysseus keeps putting himself and his crewmembers into dangerous situations. Odysseus does not care what danger he may come across, he just cares about going home. He will do anything to do so. On the other hand when he comes into a tough situation he always gets out safely risking a few crewmembers, but manages to get one step closer to his goal. An example of Odysseus being a good leader is when they pass the island Sirens. Odysseus tells his crew members to put wax in their ears, so the crew cannot hear the song of sirens and get pulled in by the beauty of the songs. Odysseus has a hard time staying away from trouble, but when he is in adversity he uses his cunningness to get out of trouble and be a good leader.
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